有人认为特斯拉把车主手里的edr数据拿到就可以让真相大白于天下,未免太天真的

CanadianPopeye-avatar

CanadianPopeye

2021-04-25T09:38:24+00:00

[@lihanh520]

所谓edr数据怎么提取之前有人说过了,不再赘述
edr数据能不能造假,是不是只读的问题,也不在此讨论
我就说一说edr数据能不能说明问题

目前能说明刹车有问题还是没踩,唯一的有力证据是刹车踏板的踩踏力度(注意不是踩踏行程),有这个力度数据基本就可以判断是车主没踩还是踩不下去还是其他情况。哪怕有刹车踏板的行程数据都无法证明刹车踏板是否能踩下去。
但是就算edr数据里可以恢复出刹车踏板的行程数据,那也好啊

有人拿着国产二手新闻说,edr里面有这个数据,我是不信的,裤裆磨肿了我也不会相信这些媒体的话

这里有一份长度为42页的特斯拉edr数据,国内二手新闻里的数据都是这里来的
数据连接地址
[url]https://www.crashdatagroup.com/pdf/Tesla-sample-EDR-Report-3.pdf[/url]
里面有两个碰撞数据实例,和对所有数据的解释
点击展开 ...
Event Data Recorder
An Event Data Recorder is defined as a device or function in a vehicle that records the vehicle’s dynamic time-series data during the time
period just prior to a crash event (e.g., vehicle speed vs. time) or during a crash event (e.g., deltaV vs. time), intended for retrieval after
the crash event. For the purposes of this definition, the event data do not include audio and video data (49 CFR Part 563).
Data Synchronization
Pre-crash and crash data are recorded in discrete intervals and may be asynchronous.
Events
The Model 3 RCM can store up to two events: Event 1 and Event 2. The conditions for triggering the recording of an event differs
depending on event type.
Time Zero
Time Zero, as indicated throughout the event record, is the point where the restraint control algorithm is activated in any sensing
direction.
Recording duration
The end of an event is typically the moment at which the cumulative delta-V within a 20ms time period does not change by more than
0.8 km/h or the moment at which the crash detection algorithm of the RCM resets. Some events may lead to the recording of different
duration data as provided for by 49 CFR Part 563.
Deployment events
A deployment event may be recorded when the RCM commands the deployment of a device (e.g. airbag, pretensioner, or High Voltage
(HV) battery disconnect). Airbag deployment events are always locked in memory and are never overwritten. Pretensioner/HV disconnect
only deployments may not be locked and may be overwritten.
Non-deployment events
A non-deployment event may be recorded when the RCM senses a physical occurrence triggering the recording of an event but does not
command the deployment of a device (e.g. airbag, pretensioner, High Voltage (HV) battery disconnect). A non-deployment event is
recorded if one of the two event memory locations is available (not locked). Non-deployment events are not locked in memory. A nondeployment event is overwritten by another non-deployment event or a deployment event.
Data polarity
Where applicable, the data in this report follows the polarity conventions found in SAE J1733 and J211. For example, forward longitudinal
acceleration and resultant delta-V are positive and left-to-right lateral acceleration and resultant delta-V are positive. Positive roll angle is
rotation about the vehicle’s longitudinal axis using the right hand rule (clockwise vehicle roll when viewed from the rear of the vehicle).
Positive steering wheel angle is clockwise rotation of the steering wheel (steering to the right from straight).
Signal Not Available (SNA)
Signal Not Available (SNA) indicates a data element which is not available due to a fault or network communication disruption with the
sensor that supplies the data to the EDR.
Data Element Definitions
Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)
The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is stored in the RCM when it is installed at the Tesla Fremont Factory or by Tesla Service. The last
6 digits of the VIN can be anonymized by selecting the “Save without VIN sequence number” option in the Tesla EDR Retrieval Program.
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Retrieval Date
The Retrieval Date is the calendar date and time when the data was retrieved from the RCM. This date and time is sourced from the
computer that was used to retrieve the data. This is not the date and time of an event.
Retrieval User Comments
The Retrieval User Comments is an open field that can be used by the Tesla EDR Retrieval operator to record text comments at the time
of retrieval.
Retrieval Program Information
The Retrieval Program Information is the version number of the Tesla EDR Retrieval Program that was used to retrieve the EDR data from
the RCM.
EDR Report Information
The EDR Report Information identifies the version of the Tesla EDR Report Service.
Report Date
Report Date is the calendar date when the online Tesla EDR Report Service was used to generate the report. The source of this data
element is the Tesla server.
Number Of Events
The Number Of Events represents the total number of events that are stored in the RCM memory. The maximum number of events that
can be recorded is two.
Time From Event 1 to 2 (seconds)
The Time From Event 1 to 2 is the amount of time elapsed between the Time Zero of two linked events (if applicable). Linked events must
occur within 5 seconds and in the same ignition cycle. Non-linked events will report “N/A” in the Time From Event 1 to 2 value. The value is
reported to the nearest 0.5 seconds.
Ignition Cycle At Retrieval
The Ignition Cycle At Retrieval is the number of times that the RCM had been powered on as reported at the time that the Tesla EDR
Retrieval Program was used to retrieve the data from the RCM. The maximum value for ignition cycles is over 4 billion.
Maximum Delta-V, Longitudinal/Lateral (km/h)
The Maximum Delta-V, Longitudinal/Lateral is the maximum magnitude of the recorded delta-V during the event. The value is reported to
the nearest kilometer per hour. The range for Maximum Delta-V is -100 km/h to +100 km/h. The source of the data is the internal
calculation (integration) of the sensor data inside of the RCM.
Time to Maximum Delta-V, Longitudinal/Lateral (ms)
The Time to Maximum Delta-V, Longitudinal/Lateral is the time from Time Zero to the maximum magnitude of the recorded delta-V
during the event. The maximum value is 300 ms and the value is reported to the nearest millisecond.
Time to Maximum Delta-V, Resultant (ms)
The Time to Maximum Delta-V, Resultant is the time from Time Zero to the calculated maximum resultant of the longitudinal and lateral
delta-V components. The maximum value is 300 ms and the value is reported to the nearest millisecond.
Ignition Cycle At Event
The Ignition Cycle At Event is the number of times that the RCM had been powered on as reported at Time Zero. The maximum value for
ignition cycles is over 4 billion.
Ignition Cycle Runtime
Ignition Cycle Runtime is the total cumulated time from when the RCM was powered on to Time Zero for a given event. The maximum
value of Ignition Cycle Runtime is over 70 million minutes and the resolution is 0.1 minutes.
Odometer At Event Time Zero
Odometer At Event Time Zero is the value of the vehicle’s lifetime mileage accumulation at Time Zero. The maximum value for this data
element is over 1 million kilometers and the resolution is 0.1 kilometers.
Airbag Warning Lamp Status
Airbag Warning Lamp Status indicates the commanded state of the warning lamp as “on” or “off” within approximately the last second
before Time Zero.
ABS Warning Indicator Status
ABS Warning Indicator Status indicates the commanded state of the warning lamp as “on” or “off” within approximately the last second
before Time Zero.
Vehicle Drive Mode
Vehicle Drive Mode is the status of the vehicle’s powertrain setting within approximately the last second before Time Zero . Possible
values for this data element include Park, Reverse, Neutral and Drive.
Driver/Passenger Safety Belt Status
The Driver/Passenger Safety Belt Status is the recorded status of the safety belt at the time of the event. This data element is recorded
one second before Time Zero.
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Occupant Classification In Front Passenger Seat
The Occupant Classification data element indicates the detected occupant type in the front passenger seat. Values include: Empty, Child,
Small Adult, Large Adult.
Driver Seat Position
Driver Seat Position indicates the recorded seat track position of the driver seat. The possible values are Rearward and Forward.
Rear occupant seat status
The Model 3 may record data associated with the second row seat occupancy and seat belt status. The possible values for occupancy
status include: Not Occupied or Occupied, or Not Available. The possible values for rear occupant seat belt status are Buckled, Not
Buckled, or Not Available.
Driver Airbag Deployment 2nd Stage Disposal
This data element indicates if the driver airbag second stage was commanded to deploy (either for occupant restraint or propellant
disposal purposes).
Right Front Passenger Airbag Deployment 2nd Stage Disposal
This data element indicates if the passenger airbag second stage was commanded to deploy (either for occupant restraint or propellant
disposal purposes).
Complete File Recorded
Complete File Recorded indicates whether or not the complete data set available to the EDR was successfully recorded.
Deployment Summary
The Deployment Summary table indicates which of the deployable safety devices (if any) were commanded to deploy and at what time
(relative to the event Time Zero). The possible values for the status of each device is “Deployment Commanded” or “Deployment Not
Commanded”. The deployment commanded time is to the nearest millisecond.
Time Series Data
All time references are based on the event definition of Time Zero.
Vehicle Speed
Vehicle Speed is calculated using the four wheel speed signals as well as inertial acceleration measurements. This speed will be reported
either in kilometers per hour or miles per hour, depending on vehicle configuration. The minimum value for vehicle speed is 0 and the
maximum value is greater than 200 km/h (124 mph). The resolution of Vehicle Speed is to the nearest kilometer per hour or mile per hour,
depending on vehicle configuration.
Accelerator Pedal (%)
Accelerator Pedal (%) is the percent of full application of the accelerator pedal. The resolution of Accelerator Pedal (%) is to the nearest
percent.
Rear Motor Speed (rpm)
Rear Motor Speed is the rate of rotation of the rear drive motor. The maximum value for Rear Motor Speed is 17,900 rpm (revolutions per
minute). The resolution of Rear Motor Speed is to the nearest 1 rpm. Positive RPM values indicate that the vehicle motor is rotating
negatively about the vehicle’s lateral (y) axis, which provides forward motive force.
Service Brake
Service Brake indicates the status of the driver’s application of the brake pedal as reported by the brake booster. The possible values for
Service Brake are “On” (pedal being applied by driver) and “Off” (pedal not being applied by driver).
Stability Control
Stability Control is the status of the Electronic Stability Control system (ESC). The possible values are “On” (meaning the ESC was
enabled but not active), “Off” (meaning the ESC was turned off), and “Engaged” (meaning that the ESC was active).
ABS Activity
ABS Activity is the status of the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS). The possible values are “On” (meaning the ABS was active) and “Off”
(meaning the ABS was not active). Active ABS status does not necessarily indicate that the ABS control unit was actively modulating
braking at one or more wheels.
Steering Wheel Angle (deg)
Steering Wheel Angle represents the measured rotational angle of the steering wheel. The range of Steering Wheel Angle data is -819 deg
to +819 deg. The resolution of steering wheel angle is to the nearest degree. Data is recorded for 5 seconds prior to Time Zero every 0.1
seconds.
Lateral/Longitudinal Pre-Crash Acceleration
Lateral and Longitudinal Pre-Crash Acceleration data is the measured physical acceleration of the vehicle as measured at the RCM during
the 5 seconds prior to (and including) Time Zero.
Roll/Yaw Rate Pre-Crash Data
Roll and Yaw Rate Pre-Crash data is the measured angular velocity of the RCM for the 5 seconds prior to (and including) Time Zero. The
resolution of this data element is to the nearest 0.1 degrees/second and the samples are recorded every 0.1 seconds.
5YJ3E1EA1JF000000 Page 4 of 42 2019/08/30 22:18:36 (UTC)
Longitudinal/Lateral Delta-V data
Longitudinal and Lateral Time Series Delta-V Data indicates the change in velocity of the vehicle. The source of the data is the internal
calculation (integration) of the sensor data inside of the RCM. The resolution of Delta-V data is to the nearest kilometer per hour and the
data is reported every 10 ms after Time Zero (until the end of the event). The range for delta-V data is -100 km/h to +100 km/h.
Longitudinal/Lateral/Normal Time Series Acceleration data
Longitudinal and Lateral Time Series Acceleration Data indicates the measured physical acceleration of the vehicle. The source of the data
is the accelerometers located inside the RCM. The resolution of acceleration data is 0.8 g and the data is reported every 0.5 ms after Time
Zero (until the end of the event). The range of acceleration data is -96 g to +96 g.
Serial Numbers
Serial numbers are the sensor identification numbers that are stored in the RCM. These values are stored when the RCM is powered up
(each ignition cycle).
Hexadecimal Data
The Hexadecimal Data found in this report represents the original, raw data and identifying information retrieved from the RCM accessed
to ultimately generate this report. The binary data is represented in hexadecimal format as a matter of convenience. While it represents all
the raw data retrieved from the subject RCM not all of that raw data may be used in a given report or application

我就选里面重要的说
Accelerator Pedal (%)
Accelerator Pedal (%) is the percent of full application of the accelerator pedal. The resolution of Accelerator Pedal (%) is to the nearest
percent.
这就是单出的油门百分比,没有明确证据证明百分比的含义

Service Brake
Service Brake indicates the status of the driver’s application of the brake pedal as reported by the brake booster. The possible values for
Service Brake are “On” (pedal being applied by driver) and “Off” (pedal not being applied by driver)
这是制动助力器报告的刹车踏板状态,只有on/off两个态,对应了司机踩/没踩

ABS Activity
ABS Activity is the status of the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS). The possible values are “On” (meaning the ABS was active) and “Off”
(meaning the ABS was not active). Active ABS status does not necessarily indicate that the ABS control unit was actively modulating
braking at one or more wheels.
这里的abs有on/off两个态,分别对应了触发和没有触发,但是参照下面的数据实际上还有engaged态,从这个说明来看,engaged态指的才是abs对车轮施加制动力控制

Lateral/Longitudinal Pre-Crash Acceleration/Longitudinal/Lateral Delta-V data/Longitudinal/Lateral/Normal Time Series Acceleration data
这些不多赘述,指的是车辆碰撞前后的加速度/速度变化记录,需要注意的是这些数据是rcm记录的所以可能并非车辆本身的数据,也就意味着可能和上传的所谓“数据”有误差

我认为结论而言,公布edr的数据可以做到的唯一一件事,就是印证特斯拉自己公布的数据是否是真实的,因为这里面有些额外测量的数值是可以说明一些问题的
第二就是根据这些数据 可以进一步清晰的得出当时车子的刹车能力和减速度。不过遗憾的是根据特斯拉自己公布的数据,减速度在那个路况条件下并不理想
另外值得注意的是这份数据的来源日期是2019年8月30日,这意味着如果那位车主的车是在更晚日期购买的话,也许edr设备会有更新,记录更多的信息也存在这种可能(我不太相信。)

——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
更新一下,我读了一下model 3最新版的说明书,发现一些很有意思的事情
Event Data Recorder (EDR)
Model 3 is equipped with an event data recorder (EDR).
The main purpose of an EDR is to record, in certain crash
or near crash-like situations, such as an air bag
deployment or hitting a road obstacle, data that will
assist in understanding how a vehicle's systems
performed. The EDR is designed to record data related
to vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short
period of time, typically 30 seconds or less. The EDR in
Model 3 is designed to record data such as:
• How various systems in your vehicle were operating;
• Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts
were buckled/fastened;
• How far (if at all) the driver was depressing the
accelerator and/or brake pedal;
and,
• How fast the vehicle was traveling.
The data can help provide a better understanding of the
circumstances in which crashes and injuries occur.
NOTE: EDR data is recorded by your vehicle only if a
non-trivial crash situation occurs; no data is recorded by
the EDR under normal driving conditions and no
personal data (e.g., name, gender, age, and crash
location) is recorded. However, other parties, such as law
enforcement, could combine the EDR data with the type
of personally identifying data routinely acquired during
a crash investigation.
To read data recorded by an EDR, special equipment is
required, and access to the vehicle or the EDR is needed.
In addition to the vehicle manufacturer, other parties,
such as law enforcement, that have the special
equipment, can read the information if they have access
to the vehicle or the EDR. Tesla may also access the EDR
remotely in some crash circumstances.


1. edr数据里包含油门和刹车踏板行程信息(这与我在网上查到的edr数据相悖,我暂时还没有在网上找到包含刹车行程信息的edr数据)
2.法律部门可以直接获取车辆的edr信息
3.某些情况下特斯拉可以远程获取edr信息

这说不定意味着,现在新款的特斯拉上是可以记录刹车踏板信息的。但是话说回来,由于河南事故的车辆是美国进口,估计购买时间早于2020年,所以是否记录了该数据我依然持悲观状态
Squidy-avatar

Squidy

那车主又是拿了什么有力证据出来举证了?各种理由找借口,除了制造舆论让大家抨击特斯拉还干了啥?
こまさん-avatar

こまさん

原来还真的记录不到刹车踏板行程数据?
不愧是硅谷钢铁侠的特斯拉,一次又一次赢麻了,科技感原地爆炸[img]http://img.nga.178.com/attachments/mon_201209/14/-47218_5052bcb093870.png[/img]
Snake1127-avatar

Snake1127

[img]http://img.nga.178.com/attachments/mon_201209/14/-47218_5052bc4cc6331.png[/img]经过这几天的沉淀我已经对特斯拉彻底失望了,到底是谁给了特斯拉这么巨大的勇气
Senlair-avatar

Senlair

真的有东西会记录踩踏压力吗[s:ac:哭笑]
但是公布edr数据还是有意义的 比如车速 比如特斯拉撒谎了没 如果真没踩下去再追究助力失效问题
可是不是有abs起效吗听说

你不能说拿到了事情就结了 但是它能推动事情更接近真相 那还是很值得做的
黒猫-avatar

黒猫

应该可以从那啥压力判断深浅吧

[img]https://img.nga.178.com/attachments/mon_202104/29/-7da9Q16w-kmbkK2qT1kShs-12h.jpg.medium.jpg[/img]
CanadianPopeye-avatar

CanadianPopeye

[quote][pid=512040358,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=1265097]GeoL[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:06):

应该可以从那啥压力判断深浅吧

[img]https://img.nga.178.com/attachments/mon_202104/29/-7da9Q16w-kmbkK2qT1kShs-12h.jpg.medium.jpg[/img][/quote]我先不说这种二手新闻可信不可信,你先自己读一读

是不是里面说了,会记录踩的加速踏板还是刹车,并且会记录加速踏板开度?这不啥好没有说记录刹车踏板开度?
黒猫-avatar

黒猫

[quote][pid=512044561,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=33365026]果粉萌小歪[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:22):

我先不说这种二手新闻可信不可信,你先自己读一读

是不是里面说了,会记录踩的加速踏板还是刹车,并且会记录加速踏板开度?这不啥好没有说记录刹车踏板开度?[/quote]算啦,现在也没啥可说的了,等双方出招吧
ツDeniXツ-avatar

ツDeniXツ

Reply to [pid=512040358,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=1265097]GeoL[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:06)EDR的数据的可靠性本身就是个问题,因为有了自动驾驶功能 电子系统可以控制刹车油门方向盘 如果电子数据出错 EDR的数据很有可能记录的直接就是错误数据 真要提高数据的可信度 刹车影像势在必行 就像比亚迪一样 给刹车都装上摄像头 真刹车失灵还是操作问题立刻一清二楚
黒猫-avatar

黒猫

[quote][pid=512046809,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=161294]kokomary[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:31):

EDR的数据的可靠性本身就是个问题,因为有了自动驾驶功能 电子系统可以控制刹车油门方向盘 如果电子数据出错 EDR的数据很有可能记录的直接就是错误数据 真要提高数据的可信度 刹车影像势在必行 就像比亚迪一样 给刹车都装上摄像头 真刹车失灵还是操作问题立刻一清二楚[/quote]总不能相信一张嘴吧?
而且还不是驾驶人
一直再闹的是副驾驶
CanadianPopeye-avatar

CanadianPopeye

[quote][pid=512046809,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=161294]kokomary[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:31):

EDR的数据的可靠性本身就是个问题,因为有了自动驾驶功能 电子系统可以控制刹车油门方向盘 如果电子数据出错 EDR的数据很有可能记录的直接就是错误数据 真要提高数据的可信度 刹车影像势在必行 就像比亚迪一样 给刹车都装上摄像头 真刹车失灵还是操作问题立刻一清二楚[/quote]edr数据可以给出加速度,跟特斯拉之前给的数据互相印证

其实如果特斯拉之前给的数据里加速度很理想,现在就没这么多破事了
ツDeniXツ-avatar

ツDeniXツ

Reply to [pid=512047319,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=1265097]GeoL[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:34)谁都不信 拿数据说话 现在的情况就是特斯拉放出的所谓数据证明了特斯拉刹不住 而且预防碰撞系统工作也有问题
sayn-avatar

sayn

说真的,按劳分配的事情见多了,我还是一直在墙上吧
Pepino-avatar

Pepino

只要几个时间点速度能确定证明是否和特斯拉公布的一致的话。我觉得就够说明问题了呗。吃瓜群众只关心这个,至于法律什么证据啥的,不关心
‘aiden-avatar

‘aiden

正常安装且工作的edr数据当然可信。
现在问题在于第一,特斯拉的edr装好没?有没有正确记录数据。他啥车能失灵,中控能死机,凭什么edr会是正常的?
第二,特斯拉的驾驶习惯和正常不一样,按照平时习惯的正常驾驶数据来分析对不对。
黒猫-avatar

黒猫

Reply to [pid=512052875,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=14108526]Keefer[/uid] (2021-04-29 18:57)
事发车是进口的吧 那是一定装了的
ICEpandaroy-avatar

ICEpandaroy

[quote][pid=512038002,26540061,1]Reply[/pid] Post by [uid=63145957]豆豆滴夏天[/uid] (2021-04-29 17:57):

[img]http://img.nga.178.com/attachments/mon_201209/14/-47218_5052bc4cc6331.png[/img]经过这几天的沉淀我已经对特斯拉彻底失望了,到底是谁给了特斯拉这么巨大的勇气[/quote]粉丝啊。
Gulskjaeren-avatar

Gulskjaeren

其实除了楼主发的EDR报告样本,一个美国警方培训的PPT更有参考价值 [url]https://docplayer.net/137715211-Tesla-edr-a-case-study.html[/url]
里面也详细说明了EDR数据的导出和分析方法,但更值得注意的是后面Tesla Diagnostic Data特斯拉的诊断日志数据(参考PPT中75页到80页)。
这个数据在美国需要警方出示搜查令要求特斯拉公司出示,PPT中诊断日志的数据格式与这起事件中数据的格式非常相似,所以媒体提供的一分钟数据和后来女车主发出的几张数据应该都是特斯拉的诊断日志。
唯一不同之处在于制动主缸压力这个数据在PPT的例子里警方没有要求出示,PPT的诊断日志表格中没有,而当前这起事件中是有的,所以特斯拉公司究竟有没有刹车踏板的数据还不好说。

我个人来说倾向于刹车踏板的行程数据没有被记录,要是确实被记录的话根本不需要再设置一个开关量来表示刹车踏板有没有发生物理性位移。我猜测其原因可能是iBooster系统负责刹车控制,刹车踏板传感器的信号没有旁路到特斯拉的控制系统,特斯拉的控制系统只能接收经过iBooster系统输出的制动主缸压力和物理位移的一个开关量,因为跟车上其他控制系统直接相关的就是制动主缸压力,而不是踏板行程。
当然这样就复杂了,双方都难以被证伪,还是希望这个猜测是错误的,如有人熟悉相关的情况,请不吝赐教。

还是希望大家能理性讨论,互相攻讦无助于事件的分析。
作为上海车展出事前一周交了定金的准车主,还是希望能快点水落石出,让我决定到底提不提车[s:ac:愁]
Mark McCloskey-avatar

Mark McCloskey

电车数据能不能造假我不知道,但是各种设备的厂家肯定有办法改直接机器内改原始数据的[s:ac:哭笑]
greeves12-avatar

greeves12

能证明特斯拉数据造假,这一条就足够了。